AMNA NAWAZ: It's been another busy week in# Washington that saw the end of the longest## government shut down in U.S.

history and new# developments regarding the Jeffrey Epstein files.

To discuss, we turn now to the analysis of# Brooks and Atkins Stohr.

That is David Brooks## of The New York Times and Kimberly Atkins Stohr# at The Boston Globe.

Jonathan Capehart is away.

Great to see you both.

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR, The# Boston G.. AMNA NAWAZ: So the longest .. It took seven Democrats and one# independent to break with the## Democratic Party in the Senate.# Six Democrats broke in the House.

The deal that they got, David, does not include# the extension of the ACA health care subsidies,## which was their reason for shutting# down the government in the first## place.

There's an argument here, though,# that Democrats changed the conversation.## We're now talking about the subsidies.# We're talking about affordability.

Did they win the war and lose the# battle?

How do you look at this?

DAVID BROOKS: That's spinning that.

We# changed the conversation.

Congratulations.

I would say I have a few lessons I have learned# that I would have hoped that political parties,## primarily the Democrats, but also# the Republicans, have learned.

First,## don't pass cynical laws.

When the Democrats# had control of the White House, the House,## and the Senate in 2021,# they passed these subsidies.

If they really believe in the subsidies, don't# make them go away in five years.

Make them## permanent and be honest with the American people# about what it's going to cost, so that -- and that## and both parties do this sunsetting thing.# And so it was cynical of them to do it and## they're paying -- the people they're trying# to help are paying the price because of that.

Second, if you lose an election and the# other party does something you don't like,## don't shut down the government.

Go to# the voters and go to the midterm and say,## these Republican policies are terrible.

Trust# the voters.

Don't shut down the government.

Third, don't shut down the government when# you're not holding the White House, because,## in these shutdowns, the president has# the power to choose where the remaining## money is going to go, and he picks his# priorities and make your people suffer.

Fourth, or whatever number I'm up# to, don't shut the government when## your party is divided and they're united.# You're going to lose.

And they did lose.

And so I just think the Democrats# shouldn't have done it.

Chuck Schumer## knew they shouldn't have done it.

But the# people in the party wanted to do something,## so he did it and it didn't look very good.

AMNA NAWAZ: Kimberly?

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR: When -- yes, when there# is a sit.. houses of Congress are governed by one party,# and they are diametrically opposed on things## like affordability of health care, the Democrats# had a moment and for a while they were doing it.

They were fighting.

This is what their base and# other Americans have been wanting for a long time.## And it was a righteous fight.

And by giving# up, they not only disappoint their base, but## it makes people throw their hands up at government# again and feel like they are not working for them.

I was in Dallas last weekend visiting families,# and I struck up some conversations with people## who have different ideological leanings in me.# And what everyone expressed was frustration,## frustration that the folks back in# Washington are fighting with each## other while people cannot# afford their health care.

They brought up health care in Texas, which I# thought was important.

Things are not affordable.## They're having difficulty just getting by.# Businesses are suffering under the tariffs,## and they just want people to work# and get it right.

And if a shutdown## was a way to get there, at least# that would lead to some outcome.

By taking away the very thing# that Democrats were fighting for,## walking away before they got it,# it let a lot of Americans down.

AMNA NAWAZ: The concerns about Chuck# Schumer as leader, those have merit?

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR: You know, I think I'm# always in favor of change of leadership and that## people should not be tenured at the leadership in# the levels of the House and the Senate.

So I think## any time we're talking about reevaluating what the# leadership looks like, that's a positive thing.

AMNA NAWAZ: We are now talking about# affordability in a way that was not## part of the discourse before.

The president# is now talking about affordability more as## well.

He shifted his rhetoric in recent# days to meet the concern, just today## slashed tariffs on a number of key food items,# things like coffee and bananas and beef and so on.

And in a recent poll, about 30 percent of# voters say that President Trump has lived## up to expectations for tackling# inflation and the cost of living.

Here's what President Trump had to say# when he was asked about it on FOX recently.

LAURA INGRAHAM, FOX News Anchor: Why are people## saying they're anxious about the# .. DONALD TRUMP, President of the United# States: I don't know that they are## saying -- I think polls are fake.

We hav.. AMNA NAWAZ: David, it is an# issue for Americans.

What## do you make of the president's rhetoric on this?

DAVID BROOKS: Well, on one level, he's sort# of right.

Inflation is at 3 percent, which## is not terrible.

Egg prices are down since he# was elected.

Unemployment rate is still low.

But then you look at consumer sentiment, it's# through the floor.

It's unbelievable how low## consumer sentiment is.

And so you got to listen# to the American people.

They know what they're## talking about.

And I think it is affordable# -- and it's affordability on two big issues.

One is health care and the other is housing.

I# saw a Bloomberg graph today that showed that,## in 2010, 25 years ago -- no, my# math is wrong -- 15 years ago.

(LAUGHTER) DAVID BROOKS: The median house purchaser was# 39 years o.. their 30s were buying houses.

Now, in 2025,# the median house purchaser is 59 years old.

So young people can't afford houses.

So that's# a gigantic problem if you're a young person## who wants to have a family and have a life.

And# so these issues, all the stuff Trump is doing,## trivial, trivial.

You have got to do the big# things, which are, A, rearrange the incentives in## the health care system that allow all these costs# to zoom up and have for basically our lifetimes.

Two, on housing, we have a housing problem# because, especially in blue states over the## last generation or two, we have put in law and# rules and lawsuits to make it really hard to## build housing.

So supply and demand, guess what,# it's a thing.

And so if somebody would take big## actions on these two big issues, you would have# a serious conversation about affordability.

But giving people a few checks or reducing# a few tariffs, I'm glad they made the Swiss## deal.

My chocolate bill will go down, but# we're not talking about the real issues## that are out there, which are real.# The affordability issues are real.

AMNA NAWAZ: What do you make of# this affordability conversation,## Kimberly, and also the idea that there's# another budget battle ahead in January?

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR: Yes.

Yes.

AMNA NAWAZ: Should Democrats shut# the go.. is no movement on those health care subsidies?

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR: I think the Democrats# need to show that there is a fight,## but fight until the end, give it all they# got, leave nothing on the court in this case.

AMNA NAWAZ: What does that look like?

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR: Whateve.. and make the case clearly to the American# people that you are fighting for them.

Look, they can't keep trying and doing this# and failing the American people and expect## the American people to keep coming back to# them.

You have the president who -- I mean,## these tariff breaks, that's all fine and good,## but it's like pouring a thimble full of water on# a bonfire.

It's not going to make a difference.

And the indices may not be# showing inflation rising,## but you know what is showing?

The receipts of# Americans when they go to the grocery store,## myself included.

It's appalling.

And we're# coming into the holidays too.

Democrats need## to fight with everything that they have.# They need to show that they understand## Americans and they're not just looking# to save themselves in the next election.

AMNA NAWAZ: Why are you laughing, David?

DAVID BROOKS: Kimberly is# hitting one of m.. DAVID BROOKS: And it's over the word fight.

AMNA NAWAZ: OK.

DAVID BROOKS: I don't thin.. mean small-D democrats.

I# think democrats persuade.

We're still in a democracy where you try# to persuade other people.

And, to me,## a lot of the fighting rhetoric is just riling up# your base at higher levels of volume.

And it's not## very persuasive.

And if you want to succeed# in a democracy, persuade, don't fight.

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR: I agree with# you, actually.

And when I say fight,## I don't mean fight each other.

I mean,# everyone, including the Texans I talked to,## are tired of the partisan rancor in Washington.

I mean fight for the American# people.

It is their power who they## lent to these lawmakers to work on# their behalf and to hear things about## affordability and how they're -- we talk a lot# about kitchen table.

This is the kitchen table## right now.

And they were showing for a# period of time that they cared about,## that they understood in what was happening,# what people were talking about at those tables.

By walking away like that, it's like# they gave up that fight for Americans.

AMNA NAWAZ: I have to ask you about the# president continuing to face more pressure,## more questions about the release of# those files related to Jeffrey Epstein.

We saw four Republicans join House Democrats to# back a petition to force a vote on releasing those## files.

We saw one of those Republican# lawmakers, Colorado's Lauren Boebert,## summoned to the White House, reportedly to# talk about her push to release the files.

And## we have heard President Trump continue to try to# convince Republicans to vote against the release.

He posted online today, saying: "Democrats# are doing everything in their withering## power to push the Epstein hoax again.# Some weak Republicans have fallen into## their clutches because they are soft and foolish."

David, what do you make of# this?

How is this going to end?

DAVID BROOKS: Soon, I hope.# I mean, I hate this issue.

This is the moment in my life, in my career,# that I'm more uncertain about the future than## any other time.

It's A.I.

It's economic# bubbles.

It's Ukraine.

It's -- I mean,## there are a million things that are happening.# And Congress comes back and they're doing Epstein?

I also hate this issue because look, I'm a# journalist.

We're journalists.

When we report,## we don't publicize everything somebody tells# us.

We check it out first.

And I'm not a lawyer,## like Kimberly is, but I think, prosecutorial# power, that's like journalism times 100,## because they can use the power of the# state to get phone records, to get e-mails.

You don't just spew it out there without checking# it out, whether it's part of some process where## you need to prosecute people.

And when I look# at the content of these e-mails, most of it is## just jibber-jabber.

Trump broke with Epstein in# 2004, and a lot of these e-mails are in 2019.

And so the one kernel that does raise# alarms is when Epstein says that Trump## was with one of the victims.# That should be investigated.## But the rest is just jibber-jabber,# and I don't know why it's central.

AMNA NAWAZ: Less than a minute.

KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:.. A lot of this is in his hands.

He's trying# to have his cake and eat it too by saying## that this is a Democratic hoax, while at# the same time saying he wants his Justice## Department to look into Democrats# who are mentioned in these files.

He can't have it both ways.

I agree# with you.

I hate this topic.

I hate## that his obstruction on it has caused it# to end up in this dribble of news items## and keep this going on in a way that I'm# sure must be devastating to the victims.

Donald Trump is not a victim in this.

There are# real victims in it.

And I'm thinking about them.

AMNA NAWAZ: I regret to inform you we will## probably be talking about# this again at some point.

(LAUGHTER) AMNA NAWAZ: Kimb.. KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR: Thank you.

DAVID BROOKS: Good to see you.